Episode 139: The Legacy and Evolution of the IAH’s Tyson Academic Leadership Program
January 16, 2025 | Kristen Chavez

Institute for the Arts and Humanities Director Patricia Parker sits down with faculty program director Viji Sathy and Rob Kramer for discussion on academic leadership and their involvement with the Institute’s Tyson Academic Leadership Program. Kramer, who recently left the IAH and moved to Oregon, had served as the Institute’s senior leadership advisor since 2011 working as co-facilitator to the Chairs Leadership Program and the ALP. With a bittersweet farewell to Kramer and his leadership, he, Parker, and Sathy discuss their collaborations and the enduring success of the ALP and its alumni.
Transcript
Kristen Chavez: Welcome to the Institute, a podcast on the lives and work of Fellows and friends of the Institute for the Arts and Humanities at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. This week, IAH Director Patricia Parker sits down with Viji Sathy and Rob Kramer for discussion on academic leadership and their involvement with the Institute’s Tyson Academic Leadership Program. The ALP prepares and supports current and emerging academic leaders in a series of activities to help them develop their leadership capacities, clarify their career commitments, build a leadership network within the campus community and extend their contacts to other leaders beyond the university.
Viji Sathy is professor of the practice in the department of psychology and neuroscience and the faculty Program Director for the ALP at the Institute. She is also the Associate Dean for Evaluation and Assessment in the College of Arts and Sciences. Rob Kramer is the co-founder of Spiro Coaching Institute, an organization that provides executive coaching to leaders in higher education, academic medicine and healthcare and nonprofits. He now departs the Institute after serving as the senior leadership advisor to the IAH since the 2010-2011 academic year. In this role, he has served as co-facilitator to both the ALP and the IAH’s Chairs Leadership Program.
As we look back at Rob’s time at the Institute, Director Parker, Rob, and Viji discuss the legacy, evolution and future of academic leadership.
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Patricia Parker: Viji and Rob, it’s so wonderful to have you here. Welcome. It’s just a treat to be in conversation with both of you. Of course, it’s bittersweet, because we’re saying goodbye to Rob after being such an integral part at the Institute for so many years.
Rob Kramer: Thank you. Yeah, it’s definitely a bittersweet moment. I’m leaving because my wife Robin Sansing, who’s an alumni actually, of the ALP, and former Clinical Professor in the School of Social Work at UNC, has accepted a new position to be the founding director of a Behavioral Health Institute at Southern Oregon University in beautiful Ashland, Oregon. So I will continue to provide executive coaching to my clients, as I’ve done before, just be doing it from the West Coast, as well as joining Southern Oregon University as a professional affiliate, serving as the senior advisor to the provost.
PP: Well, for folks who didn’t know that you were leaving, I’m sure they’d want you to have a good reason. So thank you for putting that on the record.
RK: I’m the trailing spouse, just so you guys know. And I will miss Viji terribly.
Viji Sathy: Oh, we will miss you. This program is going to miss you, for sure.
PP: Yes. Before we get into our conversation, I think it’s probably fitting for us to provide a bit of context for our listeners about this program that’s been such a big part of your life for so long, the Academic Leadership Program at the Institute for the Arts and Humanities. This is a program that got its start in the early 2000s. Of course, the Institute’s been around since 1987 and our flagship program is the Faculty Fellows Program, which focuses on research and supporting our faculty and building that interdisciplinary community among arts and humanities faculty.
But this program was really sort of – like so many things the Institute does – it was at the vanguard of thinking about, what does it mean to have a program that is tailored to academic leadership, that is focused on our faculty here at UNC Chapel Hill, especially those in the arts and humanities but also connecting across disciplines, because that’s one of our key the key pillars of what we do is these interdisciplinary connections. Having a leadership program that supports faculty in really incubating and cultivating their – they may not even know that they have desires to be in leadership positions. And what a success it’s been. We’ll maybe talk about this later that we’ve, we’ve got so many folks who have been deans and senior associate deans. I’m not a dean, but I certainly have benefited from this program. So this visionary program came into to fruition in the early 2000s and then Rob, you came along in 2011 as the senior – I don’t, not sure if that was your title at that time. What was your title? Do you remember?
RK: Senior leadership consultant, or something? I know now I’m senior leadership advisor.
PP: Exactly, yeah, but in that role, we knew that we wanted someone who was highly experienced in leadership and in teaching leadership and executive coaching, and also understanding that larger picture of the academic context for leadership. And so you came into in 2011 and then Viji, you joined as the faculty director. So that’s been our model of having a Faculty Director for all of our programs. And so for the Academic Leadership Program, Viji Sathy has been a remarkable and wonderful leader, faculty leader for this program. Viji, when did you join?
VS: In 2021, just on the heels of being in the program myself.
PP: Yes, you had been in the program the previous cohort, I believe.
VS: That’s correct.
PP: And it just the timing just worked out where we were transitioning. The person was coming, leaving that position, and you took it on. So, that’s, that’s sort of the context so, it’s really sort of in those 10 year increments. Think about that. I mean, it’s, you know, 10 years you were here in 2011. 2021, Viji starts, and probably about 10 years prior to that [of Rob joining , we were starting the program.
RK: Viji is the fourth program director.
PP: Fourth program director. So, anyway, here we are. So you get to join at this time that at the, I’d say, at the height of this, this program, and in terms of its importance. I said that the Institute was sort of at the vanguard. There are many programs across campus now, there are starting to be more leadership programs. There are certainly just starting – I can tell you this, from my perspective, as a director – other humanities centers have not had these kinds of programs, but they’re starting to have them too.
So let’s start with a question here that relates to this, to the ALP. Rob, from your perspective, you’ve had many kinds of different, many different kinds of leadership programs in your experience. How is the ALP, the Academic Leadership Program, uniquely tailored to the university or the higher education context at large?
RK: That’s a great question, and I think Viji, I’ll ask you also to join in on your perspective of this, and how you see what is unique about the Academic Leadership Program. For me, it’s what’s really unique, as you just mentioned, Pat, is that the ALP sits within the Institute for the Arts and Humanities. Not in a business school, not in the provost’s office. So it really allows for the lens of our conversations to be much more humanistic and holistic, as opposed to the type of leadership development experiences you might expect from a business school or a different traditional external provider. So it’s much more interactive and especially self-reflective in nature. It’s nondidactic. It provides a lot of space for participants to be more open to one another, and I think, to be open to themselves.
For faculty, you know, those are critical decisions for effectively engaging and developing as a leader in higher education. And as we all know, higher ed is unlike any professional sector out there. And on top of that, UNC has its own unique culture and context. So providing space for faculty to get grounded in what it means to lead at this institution at this time is a really special opportunity provided by ALP.
Lastly, I’d say the way the program supports strengthening each of the cohorts’ relationships with one another is also very special. We’ve seen great success in the cohorts continuing to stay in contact with each other and support each other. And that’s actually one of the things that I would say graduates really have appreciated the most, is developing that unique support system across the university. They don’t feel so isolated people outside their department, they could speak candidly with, to give and receive advice. What would you say, Viji?
VS: Yeah, that’s a great summary. And I think it echoes, I just wanted to underscore a couple of things that I heard you and Pat say, too. You know, Pat talked about, this is one of the few humanities centers to really take on the idea of a leadership program. And it’s such a special program because it has this perspective, this humanistic perspective that you talk about, but also because it’s open to any faculty member on our campus, which is very rare to be in a leadership program where it’s not specific to a school or a set of individuals. That anyone on campus can be part of it, and that we can learn from one another and that’s often what we see happens in discussions, is realizing that it doesn’t necessarily work the same way in different schools.
And that cohort piece is huge, because oftentimes people feel very isolated sometimes in their decisions around leadership and to learn from one another and grow from each other. That’s one of the things I’ve seen as such a huge benefit of the program is to have a space where people are speaking candidly about their challenges. And I think we’ve established a nice culture of people really opening up and talking about things that are challenging for them, and to really emphasize the whole person in the leadership journey. And it’s not necessarily just the professional space, but also the personal space and all of the things that that enter into the decision to become a leader.
PP: That’s absolutely the way that I would see the program as well. And I would imagine, though, that that the ALP has evolved a bit over the years.
So why don’t we just talk about our first impressions of the program. I mean, you Viji, I think just summed up something that’s so important and core to this program. That it’s not just the professional, but it’s also the personal. And Rob you emphasize the fact that we are in a humanistic setting, you know, the fact that we’re in the arts and humanities, we take that humanistic approach. So I think that’s been there from the very beginning.
I’d say that my impression, if we go back to 2011, I was in the first cohort where you Rob, were the senior leadership advisor. And I it was, it was absolutely career changing, but it also came at a time that it was life changing too. I think I was at a time where I was doing some reflecting on where I was in my career at that time.
RK: I think you just started, or about to start, the diversity role in the College?
PP: Well, no, actually, the cohort in which I was in got me connected. Maybe I was already on these folks radar screen, but I was connected to the senior associate dean who was heading up a task force to study whether or not we should have, what should diversity initiatives look like on our campus. So I got tapped to be a part of that task force, and out of that experience, I then became the inaugural director for faculty diversity initiatives, which eventually became a senior associate dean position.
But, but I want to say that.. So certainly, for professionally, that was something that really impacted me, but also on the personal level, again, I was at that level. I was reflecting the CCL, the Center for Creative Leadership provides an opportunity for thinking about different aspects for leadership, and it provides a coach, and I think that was the entrée into the personal for me, would you? And that’s my impression. I don’t know, Rob, if you want to reflect on that in terms of the coaching.
RK: Well, I’d ask Viji since she’s been through the program also, and then I can talk about it from the coaching aspect, because ironically and helpful, I think, to the IAH is, I’m also a coach for CCL.
PP: Yeah, that’s right.
RK: So I’m very familiar with that program from the coach’s side of the street.
VS: Yeah, the coaching is tremendous. I think for me, I’ll back up just a little bit and talk about how I was even introduced to the idea of ALP. I am a fixed-term faculty member, and I remember, actually I was seated at a meeting. I was part of the general education curriculum revision crew, and there were about nine of us at the table. And I remember sitting at the table prior to a meeting starting and Andy Perrin said, “You know what? You should really apply for this program, the Academic Leadership Program.” And I thought, oh. I should I made a note of it. What is this program? And since then, a couple other people had suggested it, and I thought, I really need to look into this. And when I did look into it, I thought, yeah, this would be a great opportunity to explore. I wasn’t in a leadership role at that time, and sometimes people do find their way in this program not having held a formal leadership title.
But that’s also what appealed to me, was that it was an exploration of leadership. And that was where I was, was thinking about that exploration. And the piece that– I think the coaching was tremendous, the CCL aspect was tremendous to me. I think what I really took away was the cohort experience. And I had had the good fortune to be in faculty, learning communities around teaching. And to me, this was an is another version of that where you sit with peers and you really wrestle with some challenging things. And I appreciated the focus being on leadership and also just exploring challenges that we were encountering, whether it was our track or departments, or any area where we had either opportunities or challenges to just be able to sit together in a group and learn from one another.
And for those people to get to know you so well that then they might identify opportunities that they think you’re a good fit for, or to encourage you, or to nominate you. I mean, I think that’s the piece that I think I took away from it was just this, this real bonding experience with my cohort and having a chance to really cultivate connections with people, especially as it pertains to leadership.
RK: And looping back also to what Pat said, the coaching aspect – first of CCL, and then also coming in with my own inherent bias as a coach myself, is a place where I would see growth in participants most of the time, and a real chance to say, “Okay, I’m being exposed to all this content. How do I make it real for myself?”
So I started to, one of the ways I started to influence the program was to make the peer support aspect of the program have a little bit more rigor around how people check in with each other, trying to introduce more aspects, sort of peer coaching. And so engaging them in the use of real curiosity, of conscious listening, of not just jumping to give each other solutions. And you could watch the temperament and the temperature in the room change a little bit.
Everyone’s always wanted to help each other. The cohorts always want to be supportive to each other, and when they provide each other the space to think and to ask good, curious questions of each other, you see the person whoever’s topic, it is kind of really delve a little deeper and peel back the onion a little further. And so that’s one of the ways that I’ve seen the power of coaching also influence the sort of the impact of it for the cohort.
VS: Yeah, and it’s so powerful that I even enrolled in a coaching course.
RK: She did!
VS: I thought it was such a beneficial set of skills to have in one’s toolkit.
PP: So that’s one way that the program has evolved over the years, over your tenure, because you were intentional about that. I do remember in my cohort that was a big impact on me. I’m not sure if you had that intentionality at that point in terms of so much focus, and so I’m sure that evolved over the time, but there was certainly that peer influence. And one of the things that I think I learned from that was people were coming to me, as, you know, seeking my advice. And that was also obviously always facilitated carefully in the sessions. But that, that idea of a junior faculty… I guess the main point is sometimes people don’t see their own potential.
RK: Yes
PP: That’s the thing, and that’s where and so I’m glad to hear that, you know that was developed even more, that everybody potentially had the opportunity to influence their peers and with the right kind of skills and tools. And that’s what I’d see that as part of your legacy here, Rob.
RK: I’m really honored by that
PP: Of course, but that’s important.
RK: I actually remember Pat, in your cohort, you were checking in on something, and I going back to sort of modeling it. I asked you — in coaching, it’s called a scaled question. I don’t know if you remember this. But you were bringing something up. I said, “Pat on a scale of one to 10. How impactful do you think this is to you?” Or whatever I asked, but I said, on a scale of one to 10, and you said, “about a six.” And I said, “What would a seven look like?” And I remember it lit you up to think about it that way.
And so what I’ve tried to do over the years is to be the coach in the room, and also to try to model, through that place of curiosity for the cohorts, kind of leadership as a way of being, not a way of doing. Oftentimes, we think leadership is you have to accomplish stuff, get stuff done, this and that. And a big part that’s missed is how you show up and how you engage and how you listen, and how you help people feel seen and heard and appreciated and valued. And so that’s a lot of what I’ve intentionally tried to do over the years.
PP: That’s awesome. And I think for those who are listening to this podcast, when people hear you speak about some of those tools, I mean, that’s the thing that people come people are hungry for these critical tools for you know how we show up for our colleagues and for ourselves.
RK: Yeah, I don’t think they even know that they’re hungry for it. I mean, you’ve seen it in the last few years. It just seems there’s… and Viji has a very coaching mindset. I don’t know if you have noticed or labeled it that, but that’s how I would label it. So the two of us in the room provide a lot of space for them to think. And I think there’s such an ability of people to breathe out and sort of rest when they come into the ALP space. How would you describe that?
VS: Yeah, I would say that. And it’s almost like we hold the mirror up for them and allow them to kind of see not just who they are, but in in conjunction with one another, who the group is and what they bring to the group. And your point, Pat, about people sometimes don’t even know their own value or what they bring to a conversation, especially in a program like this, where you can have a current chair or a dean in the cohort and alongside someone who has no leadership, like formal leadership role, right? And yet you come into the space as equals to consult with one another. And I think that’s also a really nice aspect as people learn that you can get great ideas and advice from anyone really. And it just depends on how you facilitate it and how people are willing to really bring those issues into the space.
PP: Yeah, that’s great. Well, one more thing about the evolution of the ALP. I mean. And we’ve talked about the program itself, but you know, I think we can also see that evolution in the people who’ve come through the program. In terms of the alumni, we have nearly 200 faculty alums of this program, and many have gone on to be deans and chancellors. I think we have just one chance—
RK: Two.
PP: No, we’ve only had two chancellors. That’s right. So what, what has it been like to know that you’ve had that kind of impact, to see the career and leadership development of these alumni?
RK: So gratifying. It’s just really fun. And Viji and I often talk about this. It’s gratifying regardless of where someone goes. Some people decide, yeah, up the hierarchical administrative chain is what’s their future, and for others, it’s recognizing, oh, formal leadership’s not for me. And good on them for figuring that out, and not like becoming a chair. And they’re miserable, and their faculty are miserable, but they realize “I’m going to be a great PI” or “I’m going to be a great citizen of the university,” or “I’m going to get involved in faculty governance,” and they find their way to be a good citizen of the university, is just as gratifying as watching someone become a chair or a dean or a provost or a president. But seeing them figure it out and have curiosity about themselves, and then curiosity about, how do I want to impact my community? That’s really super fun to watch. And, here’s a good example: sitting right here is Viji Sathy.
PP: And I love how you parse that out, Rob, in terms of, it’s not just about taking on other leadership positions formally, but it’s being a leader, showing up for our for our colleagues in different ways, and the way that you just described, the kind of growth, personal growth that can happen.
VS: Yeah, and I’d say, I think that’s probably the most meaningful, when people have some self-awareness around what it is they want, and cultivating any skills that they might need to do a certain position, but also just knowing where they have influence and how they can exert that influence. I think there’s so much about this program that really helps people articulate for themselves what they’d like, or at least what they’d like to move towards.
And that’s so valuable, because we are in this sort of hamster wheel sometimes, and we keep doing and doing and doing and this program really offers a pause for people to pause and think about, “Where am I headed, and is this a good direction to go in?” For me, that was the one of the biggest takeaways, was it felt a little bit like a luxury, but it was essential to have that time every Thursday to sit and reflect with others about, ‘Where is this headed?’ And am I happy with that?
PP: Yeah. You know, one of the priorities of the Institute is retention of our faculty. And I think what both of you are sharing about the impact of this program is it’s a retention program. It’s because it cultivates belonging among that cohort and all the things that you’re talking about in terms of how people, you know, what they get from this program, I think translates into a conscious decision to be here and to continue to do the work and do important work here.
RK: Yeah, we had someone either in last year’s cohort or the cohort before say to us, “I finally found my people,” because they felt so isolated in their department, and so the chance to come together with people from across campus they’d never meet and build really deep relationships creates that sense of belonging. It’s like first year retention of undergrad students. They find their place, they feel like they’re part of something bigger. And it’s the same thing for faculty,
PP: Absolutely, absolutely. And I’d say I felt the same way about my cohort. And you know, this is a good opportunity for us to bring back your experience, Viji, because your cohort had to be remote,
VS: That’s right.
PP: And so it was very, it was a very different experience. And why don’t you talk about kind of what that felt like, and what we did to intervene, a bit about that?
VS: Sure, yeah, we all of our programming was remote, even my CCL experience was online. And you can imagine, hours upon hours sitting on Zoom. So they did the best they could with that setup and modified a lot of activities. And for the Thursday meetings that were online – you know, so much of this program, and I’ve got, I’ve so thankful I got to participate in it as a director after involves sitting together over food, right? And just having conversation, which–
RK: It’s the IAH way.
PP: Yes.
VS: It’s the IAH way, but the year that I was in it, we were on Zoom, and we would take a break for lunch, but what we all would just bring our food to the computer screen. And, you know, it’s not quite the same thing.
PP: We should mention at this point there was a pandemic.
VS: Yes.
RK: This was the pandemic years.
PP: I mean, somebody maybe listening to this 80 years from now, or something like that, before the next pandemic. The next 100 year pandemic.
VS: That is why we reverted to online, exactly. And so there were, you know, obviously good conversations we’re happening, but there’s so much that that you lose a little bit with the online experience. And so I’m grateful that our group still continues to meet in person. We don’t meet on Zoom and that you actually were able to help us. We had a retreat. Although we weren’t able to take an overnight retreat as part of the program our year, we did do a retreat when we were able to travel again. And that was so beneficial, because it felt like it gave us a glimpse of what we were supposed to experience as part of the program. And that was really, really, just such a nice opportunity to reconnect with folks a couple years out of the program. And I appreciated that so much.
PP: Yeah, I was really happy when you came to me with that idea that your cohort wanted to have an in person experience as part of some one of the elements of the ALP. And so, let’s talk about those elements that the things that really make this unique. So we’ve talked about the…
PP: [Rob laughs] What?
RK: Sorry. I’m laughing because you see this every cohort. And the same thing happened with Viji’s. Even with the overnight retreat, we come in with a structure, and after a while, the cohort bonds and the facilitators become less and less relevant during the course of the semester, which is a great sign that they’re bonding and doing their thing. And I laugh, because when Viji’s cohort asked for the that retreat in person. I did this whole big design, and we got in there, and I probably did 10% of it, because they just took off and were doing their thing
PP: Because they had already kind of bonded even though they were all remote.
RK: Yeah. They were desperate to do it – not desperate, really hungry to do it together. So I was there to kind of hold space, but everything I had planned went right out the window. Sorry.
PP: No, no, that’s good. It’s good to have those memories. And that’s part of what this is about. As you sort of reflecting on this time, I’m sure that was something that was… It’s good for you to remember that, maybe going into your next. Yeah, the facilitators are not always the most important person—
RK: — not the most important person in the room.
PP: For people listening, they may: What’s this retreat like? What are you talking about this retreat? Which is a little bit unusual for, not unusual for leadership programs, but perhaps for academic leadership programs. And so there are several elements that are sort of built into the Tyson Academic Leadership Program that is intended to do just that thing that you just talked about: the bonding, cultivating belonging, kind of building up that cohort. So talk about the retreat, and then also talk about CCL as part of that as well as a unique element.
RK: So I’ll speak, but I’d also love Viji’s experience having been both director and participant. CCL is a great opportunity to experience how does leadership work as a technical thing, and be in a space with people from all kinds of sectors. They get to experience how people live in corporate or in federal or nonprofit, or what have you.
And they get a chance to represent for everyone else in the room, this is what life’s like for academia. So it can be a big eye-opener for participants. And so you bring that knowledge. And they do a battery of self-awareness instruments, so they’re starting to learn about themselves as a leader. And then they bring that into the ALP, and they’re starting to get to know each other the first month. And then it’s that first overnight retreat. And we can’t reveal what happens, because that’s part of the secret sauce, I would say, of the program. But they come out of that first retreat much closer than going in, I would say. And then the book ended retreat at the end of this and of the semester further enhances that for the participants. How would you how would you describe that, Viji?
VS: That’s exactly how I’d describe it. And the assessments around CCL, I think those are, well, maybe because I’m an assessment person, I particularly enjoy those. But the 360 evaluation, there’s very few opportunities for faculty to ask other people to say, “How am I doing in these different places?”
PP: Can you just briefly describe what a 360 evaluation is?
VS: Yeah, the 360 evaluation. So as part of CCL, I remember that the program would ask you, please contact people for whom you report to; people who report to you; and some peers. So you identify those people. And then they are contacted to complete their own batteries of assessments around your performance and the kinds of things that they see you do. And I’ll just say for myself, it was so eye opening, because I think I’m my worst critic when it comes to how I’m doing, and those assessments really helped me to see how other people see me. And in some ways, it just showed me that I have a very distorted view of myself, and especially to see some of the positive comments and how people thought of me as a bridge builder. And, you know, all of these things that I thought, Oh, I had no idea.
And it I think that I get that from the participants in the program, too, that they really gain some awareness of themselves through completing these exercises. Not just the leadership program at CCL, but the assessments that they complete – what kinds of things that tells them about who they are and how they navigate certain spaces. So that’s a really beneficial piece. And of course, the retreats are beloved I think for all of us, because it’s a chance for people to get together off site. To be away from campus, and to think together about leadership and do some of the activities that we do in those settings. I think there’s so much about this that is so unique and different from how we do work day to day. It sort of shakes people up in a good way.
RK: It allows people to take off their armor, I think, and just be a human together. And it’s refreshing for lots of people.
PP: Well, one last thing on the program, and just thinking about it over the years. I’m curious to hear from each of you about what you’ve seen as any changes or evolving in terms of topics, or how people respond in these larger settings, and also just the concerns or needs of the cohort. So any, anything that jumps out at you in any of that in terms of things that have evolved over the years?
VS: Well, I’ll start and maybe Rob you can chime in. One of the things I think I’ve seen, at least over the last few years, people really wanting to know more about how to show up and be either in leadership roles or just doing what they do for the university as a whole person with their values intact. Also with a sense of other responsibilities that they also have, so balancing their professional responsibilities with their personal responsibilities. I think year after year, we hear people talk about balance, and it’s always such a tough thing to talk about, because no one – I don’t think anyone has balance. We all sort of take their times when certain priorities come up. But that’s a topic that I’ve heard come up over the last few cohorts, and people really wanting to dig into that.
RK: I think there’s, I’ve seen also an evolution of, you know, it’s been a very provocative number of years at UNC. So issues like Silent Sam, Nikole Hannah-Jones, COVID obviously, the murder of George Floyd. The handoff from Carol Folt to Kevin Guskiewicz to now Lee Roberts.
PP: As chancellors.
RK: As chancellors, yep. Equally impactful, I think, have been the transitions of provosts and deans over the years, and that’s really changed how faculty are looking at how the university works and how it functions, how are decisions made? Obviously, the impact local government is having more and more on higher ed has become more curious for faculty. I think this sort of feeling nestled and their ability to do their work has gotten shaken in the last six/seven years, and they’re really curious to explore that and have a better understanding of how the university works, or how higher ed works in general. That’s definitely evolved in the last few years, I’d say.
PP: To what extent do you think the ALP has been responsive to that?
RK: Oh, we’re 100% flexible. If they want to talk about it, we talk about it. And sometimes we adjust our curriculum to meet their curiosities. We always start with a syllabus that we put together at the beginning of the semester, and we tell them, this is all flexible, because this is all for you. So if you want changes, if you want to change what we talk about, or when we talk about it, we’re always willing to go where the group wants to go and what they want to explore.
PP: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like and, you know, as Director of the Institute and someone who’s an alum of the ALP, I may be just a bit biased. But I think that this really is a sound structure for leadership development, and one that is has been adaptive to the academic setting, and that even though some aspects may evolve over the years, the foundations of the program are really sound in terms of, as we said at the beginning, having a structure that engages on this humanistic level, and that also looks not only at your professional development, but your personal development, and looks at that whole picture. So thank you both for giving us a good grounding of where this program is as we’re saying farewell to our friend Rob as he goes on to these other ventures.
But before we let you go, we have one final question that we ask of all of our podcast interviewees. We typically ask about a book that has changed your life. But considering today’s discussion and our new Leadership Library in Hyde Hall, what are some books or resources specifically about leadership that have been impactful for you? And Viji, if you’ve you prepared a response you can jump in too with some books too.
RK: I have so many. [Laughs]
PP: [Laughs] Okay.
RK: And as any ALP grad will know, I recommend too many books to people all the time, all through ALP. So with that in mind, and in the spirit of Dave Letterman, I thought I would give my top 10 books that I would recommend that have really been impactful for me, and also, I think, around leadership and leadership development.
RK: So the first is called Leadership and the New Science by Margaret Wheatley.
PP: Well, wait, in spirit of David Letterman, that means you’ve got to say number 10.
RK: Do I? Do we tap on the? [drum roll]
PP: Then when we get to number one we’ll do that.
RK: Number 10! Yeah, Leadership and the New Science by Margaret Wheatley. She’s a fantastic look at the interconnectedness of how environmental structures work and how interpersonal leadership structures work. Caste by Isabel Wilkerson, which, if people have not read, every human should read that book. Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, who is a survivor of the Holocaust, again, a book everyone should read. Let Your Life Speak, by Parker Palmer is one of my personal favorites about career exploration. Leadership and Self Deception by the Arbinger group. I will leave it alone because that’s a provocative title.
Managing Transitions by William Bridges is absolutely the seminal and my most favorite book on change.
Nonviolent Communication. I forgot the numbering. I’m at number three. Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg, great book about healthy communication strategies.
Now I’m at number three. All right, so coming in at number three, Seeing Systems by Barry Oshry, who is the author of and the creator of workshop most people took at CCL that included uppers, middles and lowers, or they used to say tops, middles, bottoms. That book, that workshop, is based on the work of Barry Oshry.
Coming in at number two is The Art of Possibility, by Rosamund and Ben Zander, which is a fabulous look at, can I see possibility in things and in others? And number one, which came out just last year and I think every person who works in higher ed should read this book to understand why higher ed is so quirky and weird and fun, is called Whatever it Is, I’m Against it by Brian Rosenberg.
PP: Thank you so much for that. Viji, did you want to share a couple books?
VS: Well, that’s quite a library there. Well, I’m gonna give a shout out to Rob’s book on Stealth Coaching because we’ve used that in the ALP materials, and it’s a nice, I think it’s a nice primer for people to think about how coaching can be used in their activities working with one another. And I always recommend this book, and I probably recommend it to each of you at some point. The Art of Gathering is a book that I’ve appreciated–
PP: Priya Parker.
VS: Exactly. Because the ALP space, is a gathering space. And so I like for people to think about the purpose of gathering and how they can do that intentionally.
And then my I’ve come to a lot of leadership ideas through teaching books. And so I’ve a long list of teaching books, but one book that I think really impacted me. And it’s not about teaching, actually. It’s Quiet, by Susan Cain. And it was the first book that I read that made me feel like I was not the problem. That the way I am is okay, and actually it’s better than okay, that there’s some certain strengths that quiet people have. And that was really impactful for me.
PP: Awesome.
RK: There, we just stocked your library.
PP: Yes, you have. Well, thank you both so much for this wonderful conversation. And again, Rob, thank you for all the years of you that you have given because you absolutely show up as a whole person to give yourself to the work and the work of the Institute. And you’ve been such an integral part, as I said in the beginning of this storied Institute and so we were lucky to have had you cross our path, and we hope that we’ll cross paths again in the future.
RK: It will happen. Thank you. It’s really been one of the honors of my career to work at the IAH
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KC: This has been The Institute, a podcast by UNC Institute for the Arts and Humanities. This episode was produced and edited by Kristen Chavez. Listen to other and upcoming episodes of The Institute by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts, visit our website, iah.unc.edu to find past episodes and transcripts. There you can also learn more about our programs and opportunities for UNC-Chapel Hill faculty, find upcoming events. Events and read stories that feature our arts and humanities fellows. Thank you for joining us.
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